Category: Uncategorized (Page 4 of 5)

After a long road with constant repairs Roadtrek offered and came through with a replacement CS Adventurous. Even though it was a long process that was certainly stressful and aggravating, they did in the end deliver a replacement vehicle, and even offered an upgraded interior finish at no extra cost. While no company is ever perfect when dealing with customers, it was great to have Roadtrek finally offer a solution and I’m very appreciative.

Hey! Somewhere other than the repair shop!

I do have questions about this new coach, and getting an answer hasn’t been easy.

One of the main problems with the previous CS Adventurous I had, was the lackluster (at best) performance of the Alde radiant heating system. (See my previous posts) This new coach had a slightly redesigned layout, and while it’s heating much better than the last van, I question whether it was installed to proper manufacturer specifications and whether it’s working as efficiently as it should or could.

The previous system consisted of a loop of radiant tubing that ran around the coach, through convectors in various places along the way, and back to the boiler. Off of that main loop was a secondary loop that ran under the floor to warm the floor and provide additional radiating heat. For some reason, that system didn’t work – it could never heat the coach to a comfortable temperature, even after hours.

This new coach has a modified design. They added additional convectors, as well as an auxiliary fan that can be switched on and off to help circulate the heat from a set of convectors added toward the front of the van. While adding a fan to an otherwise silent radiant heating system is less than ideal, it is relatively quiet and does help to move the heat around.

The most curious change, and the thing that I’m still trying to get an answer on from the manufacturer, is the change to the main loop of radiant tubing. Instead of a main loop with a branch off that ran a second loop under the floor, this new system is a single loop – it runs out of the boiler, through the convectors, through the floor, and back to the boiler. The potential problem is the size of the piping used in the loop. The piping for the main loop runs around at 22mm thick, but it is then being reduced to 12mm when it enters and runs under the floor, and it is then enlarged again back to 22mm to reenter the boiler and complete the loop. Having experience with a home radiant heating and flooring system, as well as a very qualified engineer who designed that system, I question the reduction in diameter of the piping in the loop.

Previous Alde System Design

New Alde System Design

My first thought was to contact the manufacturer, Alde, and ask them if it’s acceptable practice to change pipe diameters in a loop. I had previously spoken with a representative from Alde about my first problematic van and system and figured they would be the best route to get an answer – if for nothing else, peace of mind that the system was designed and installed to their specifications and that the fact that I could practically fry eggs on the floor was a feature, not a bug. (In the previous van, the floor would never get warm – probably because it was just a branch off the main loop. In this new system, the floor was included in the main loop, so all that heated glycol was passing at it’s fully heated temperature through the floor.) Was the floor warm? You bet! Was I worried it might cause problems down the road if it was getting TOO warm? Yes.

Unfortunately, repeated calls and emails go unanswered from Alde and it’s apparently single person in the US who can answer questions about their product. Various forums talk about how helpful they are, but it’s been 3 months, and the only thing I’ve gotten was a quick email saying he was waiting to hear back from Roadtrek and would update me when he heard back. I’m still waiting.

I shared my story up to January 7th, 2016 when I decided to finally publish all this to share with prospective buyers or anyone else with a Roadtrek that was wondering why they might be having heating issues as well – I know you’re out there, I talk to you on Facebook. Today is almost another month later and I still have no RV.

Just after my last entry, my dealer, Roadtrek, and Alde were working to figure out what was going on with the heating system in the coach and why the performance was so lackluster. Roadtrek informed my dealer who forwarded an email to me that they were continuing testing at the factory in Canada with a similar system to determine what was going on.

We are continuing testing so we can get a series of results. Last night the van was tested and did heat to about 60º, but the team here wants to continue testing to get a more accurate look at the situation. We will be running the Alde system over the weekend with meters measuring temperature, etc.

If Roadtrek was investigating at the factory, it gave me hope that they were agreeing with me that the heating performance was not correct. The lowest temperature the night they were referencing was 21º, so their van only managed to heat about 39º – I certainly wouldn’t say that 60º is warm and wouldn’t want to be boondocking on a cold Canadian night if that was all I could expect from the system.

At this point, I asked my dealer to investigate alternative brands. Three months in with no end in sight and I was ready to move on to another manufacturer. On January 12th, my dealer told me to call Roadtrek – they might have a solution for me.

The next day I spoke with the Roadtrek representative. She apologized for the trouble, and told me the heat was a problem that they were discovering and working to engineer a solution. One of the issues she mentioned was the fact that a portion of the heating loop in the coach ran under the vehicle and was exposed to the outside. She said they were actively working on a redesigned system.

The offer was to unwind the deal – give me back my Ranger and undo the sale of the CS Adventurous. The second option was to replace the vehicle with a newly built and tested identical model (which at this point would mean a full model year newer because we are already in 2016). Taking back the Ranger seemed less attractive now that time had passed and value had been lost, and I don’t know if anything would be done to make up for finance charges, insurance payments made, travel, etc. And despite all the trouble, I really did want a CS Adventurous. Even though I haven’t been able to test one, the things they SAY they can do sound great. So I agreed to a replacement vehicle and was told one was already beginning production with the right options. And so I waited.

And so I continue to wait. And my RV sits at the dealership where it has remained since the beginning of December, 2015 (I have to put the year now when I mention dates, because I don’t know how many Decembers it might be before I see a working RV). But my finance company and insurance carrier still get their payments every month even though the driveway is empty.

Here we are now, a few days shy of 3 months from purchasing this brand new 2015 CS Adventurous and I continue waiting for repairs. The dealership is in contact with Roadtrek and Alde, who are both working to figure out what’s going on.

I have driven back and forth 5 times total, at 2+ hours each way, for a total of over 20 hours of driving just to drop off or pickup the RV from service. That’s an additional 1,000 miles, split between the RV and other vehicles I had to drive to pick up and drop off the RV, not to mention time taken from work to do so. That’s 3 loan payments and insurance premiums on a vehicle which again, I have been unable to use. We are now into 2016 and the RV is another year older, adding to the depreciation of the vehicle which is occurring without the benefit of at least being able to travel and enjoy it.

The batteries were non-functional from purchase, the heating system isn’t heating, the water tank sensor was not working, and there were other more minor issues as well, such as cabinet latches that wouldn’t open and the metal shelf which holds the propane tank outside the vehicle being completely rusted on a new vehicle.

Rusty Propane Shelf

Roadtrek did eventually agree to honor the incentive from November, but the check sits here uncashed.

They have given me few options at this point. They have made it clear they will not replace the vehicle and will continue to repair it until it’s working (if that ever happens). I have made it clear to Roadtrek that as patient as I have been, it’s becoming difficult to have faith in a vehicle that has been nothing but problems from the start. I mentioned that I would need to seek legal advice but of course preferred to work with them directly, ideally to simply replace the vehicle with an identical, hopefully working model. I’m not looking to gain anything other than the fully working new RV I paid for in October. The response was as follows:

I do hope you are willing to let us work through the remaining issues, however, as from some past experience, I don’t believe this is an issue that warrants a buy back or exchange.  I would encourage you to research a bit prior to spending money on lawyers.

Again, you do have my full commitment to keep this a top priority and get the remaining issues resolved as quickly as possible.

I’m stuck with an RV that doesn’t perform as advertised and the manufacturer has been unable to repair it and will not offer a replacement vehicle. The dealer can only offer to take the RV as a trade-in, giving me the best price he can on a replacement vehicle, but would not be willing to take the huge loss that would come with that option. RV living quarters are not covered under my state’s Lemon Laws so I would most likely have to pursue a breach of warranty claim against the company.

The wait for answers continues.

Since January 4th, the service department has been testing my vehicle nearly every day to figure out why the heat never reaches the target temperature. We finally had some consistently cold weather and after a full day of testing the dealership conceded that there is indeed something not working properly when the temperature in the cabin reached only 40º after running an entire evening and overnight.

Then, I received a hopeful call from the dealership owner who had stepped in to help resolve these issues telling me that they had some success in getting the heat up in the cabin. It involves the valve in the heat exchanger.

Under the front passenger seat is the heat exchanger that is installed as part of the Alde system. The heat exchanger is supposed to allow heat to transfer from an engine loop to the cabin’s loop when driving to utilize that otherwise wasted engine heat to warm you up while you travel, and it can also use an included separate pump to transfer heat from the cabin system to the engine to warm up the motor before heading out on a cold day.

Typically, to heat the cabin using the Alde, you simply turn on the system with propane and/or electricity and it circulates heated glycol through radiators in the perimeter walls and in-floor radiant panels. While driving, you have the option to heat the cabin without using propane or electricity. You instead use the heat generated by the engine by turning on just the pump portion of the Alde – the heat from the engine is transferred to the circulating cabin system through the heat exchanger. This is an enticing selling feature – heat without wasting propane or electricity using heat you’re generating anyway just by driving around (hopefully to more exotic places than your dealership).

To warm the engine when you’re camping out in the cold, you can turn on the Alde as usual with propane or electricity, and turn on an additional pump located at the heat exchanger under the passenger seat which circulates fluid through the engine block. Heat from the cabin loop transfers through the heat exchanger to the circulating fluid in the engine loop which warms the engine and helps you avoid cold starts when it’s frosty outside and time to move camp.

Now, this heat exchanger includes a valve. According to an employee of Roadtrek, as well as other more knowledgable Roadtrek Owners courtesy of the Facebook group, the valve is left open except in cases where you don’t want heat from outside to transfer in, like in very hot summer days where the heat from the engine might give your passenger a hot seat. There would be little heat loss from the cabin loop through the heat exchanger as long as you don’t engage that second pump for the engine loop.

That brings me back to the call from the dealership – they closed that valve and the heat started performing almost 20º better. Even at its peak performance however, the largest rise in temperature has been 50º after running an entire evening and overnight, so when it’s 0º outside, you can only expect to get to 50º in the cabin using the heating system. I say this is what you can expect because no one, not Roadtrek or Alde, will tell you what performance to expect from the system. They won’t even give ballpark numbers other than to say you will be warm in the cold weather.

It doesn’t make sense that simply turning a valve that the manufacturer and those who better understand the system say should not affect performance would produce that much difference in temperature.

Back home I went with the promise of a brighter future and a warm and toasty RV. We tested the heat when I returned – the outdoor temperature was in the high 30s, the Alde reported an indoor temperature of 51º, and after an hour of ‘heating’, the temperature rose 2º and the floors never got above lukewarm. The next morning I called my salesman at the dealership about the continuing issues with the heat, and also contacted Roadtrek. Roadtrek said they would talk to their engineering/service team and get back to me, and my salesman confirmed that 2º sounded wrong. Another 3 hours of testing the heat that night yielded a balmy 65º in the cabin. The next morning, the CO alarm is going off when I come out to check the van. It’s almost funny at this point. But not quite.

I exchanged emails with Roadtrek and the dealership service department, continued testing the heating, and finally after getting nowhere, I drove the RV BACK to the dealership on December 5th. I will remind you at this point that I do work during the week, and the dealership is 2 hours each way. And at this point in the story, I had just made my second car payment for a vehicle that had spent most of it’s life sitting in a service bay, not taking to the open roads in picturesque surroundings like Roadtrek would suggest you could do with one of these.

I didn’t see the RV again until New Year’s Eve. During this period, I spoke to the dealership who told me that they were replacing all 8 of the batteries in the vehicle. This is after I had been exhaustively testing the power system since the first time I had picked up the RV from service. There is a sticker in the vehicle that clearly states that the batteries in the vehicle are to be kept charged until delivery to the customer or they can be damaged. There is also a notice posted in the service department of the dealership which I was very familiar with at this point warning customers never to allow their batteries to completely discharge as they can be damaged. I would charge the RV by plugging in to shore power for days at a time and the inverter display would read 100% battery level. Once the plug was removed, the percentage would drop immediately, and the most I could ever charge the batteries was to a level of 87%. I had been told by the service department during my previous visit that the batteries were fine. During my correspondences with Roadtrek, I echoed these concerns about the batteries. I received a response:

 I understand you have concerns regarding the AGM batteries not charging to a full 100%.  In asking our supervisor of warranty and service, Chris, he has let me know that the batteries never have a full 100% reading, so the reading you are getting is within the normal range.

During all my troubles I happened upon a Facebook group of Roadtrek Owners and they assisted me with troubleshooting and verifying the battery performance. We had concluded that they were definitely not charging to capacity. It turns out, they were right. The service department told me that more batteries had tested bad than good, and in the work order it states that they in fact all tested bad. Another part (or 8) to order meant more time waiting.

As for the heating system, the service department had been in contact with Alde, who was kind enough to ground ship parts to them to try to troubleshoot the lazy heating performance – a pump and a bleeder kit. When I spoke to service, the technician said they had to bleed the system using Alde’s kit 3 separate times to extract all the air in the lines. So much for a ‘self-bleeding’ system, as they advertise the Alde to be.

On New Year’s Eve I drove up to hopefully finally possibly pick up the repaired RV. There was no way I was going to return home before testing, so I drove the RV across the street from the service to the sales lot at the dealership, parked, and turned on the heat. You can guess where this went. Five hours of heating using only propane as recommended by the manufacturer for maximum performance brought the temperature in the cabin from 67º to 70º (depending on who you asked as the Alde and the Dometic thermostat which is also installed in the cabin didn’t agree on the number) with an outdoor temperature in the 50s, so not in below-freezing weather by any means. Back across the street the RV went where I left it behind the service building. It’s spent more time there than at my house, so I’m sure it feels comfortable there.

Parked at the dealership, again

On November 24th, the RV went back to the dealership for a detailing appointment…no, not really, just more repair.

This time I waited for it to be repaired instead of driving the 2 hours each way to just drop it off and come back for it. Five hours later, the service department had installed a remote temperature sensor for the Alde system. Apparently, it’s not a good idea to put a thermostat directly above and attached to the cabinet that houses the heating system’s antifreeze tank…that heats up. Now there was a temperature sensor installed in the wall of the coach a few feet away from the control panel. This solved one problem by creating another – by putting it on the outside wall, the sensor was reading temperatures about 10º colder than the rest of the cabin instead of the approximately 10º warmer readings it was getting from the cabinet. Despite this, I was told that the heating system was working and in fact the service technician had taken temperature readings of 90º from the apparently now-radiating floors. He said there had been lots of air in the system which was preventing it from heating properly, and that it most likely hadn’t been bled from the factory.

The fresh water tank sensor was also fixed – the service technician said the sensor had been wired incorrectly and the ground wire needed was not installed at all.

Because it was getting cold, I requested that the dealership winterize the RV, which they did, and they happily charged me to do so. I don’t expect anything for free, but it would have been a nice gesture considering this was the 25th day the RV had spent in their custody since only purchasing it 40 days prior, again without my having been able to actually use it at all.

You can tell from the fact that the posts continue that it wasn’t really fixed.